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I am trying to ask how to negate participles and gerunds and will use examples that may or may not be idiomatic, as follows:

(a) pouvant de patience

(b) en pouvant

(c) en pouvant de patience

(d) en en pouvant

Example (a) is supposed to be a participial modifier meaning "capable of patience."

In (b), also a participial phrase, de patience has become en.

Example (c) is a gerund resulting from concatenating the preposition en and (a).

Example (d) is a gerund resulting from concatenating the preposition en and (b).

Again the examples may be unidiomatic or even ungrammatical (if so please let me know), but I hope it is clear what kind of examples I am trying to generate.

Question

How one should place ne plus in each of these?

For instance, (d) would give rise to these possibilities.

n'en en pouvant plus
en n'en pouvant plus
en en ne pouvant plus

Background

As to being idiomatic, I am particularly doubtful of (d). en en may have a problem that en la or en y doesn't.

This other question of mine is somewhat related. Thanks.

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    Where did you hear "pouvant de patience" ? It sounds ungrammatical to me. The closest sentence I see is "Je n'en peux plus d'impatience", meaning you can't wait anymore such you are impatient. Is this what you want to mean ? – Random Jan 11 '16 at 8:54
  • @Random. I am sorry, but it was a made-up example. I just wanted (a) to be able to generate (b). But your "en n'en pouvant plus" actually answers all my questions. Namely, ne follows en as preposition, but precedes en as pronoun. So, if I see en ne I will know that this instance of en is a preposition, and if I see n'en I will know en is a pronoun. Would this be the correct lesson to draw? – Catomic Jan 11 '16 at 10:39
  • It sounds good indeed :) – Random Jan 11 '16 at 10:58
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First of all, capable of patience != pouvant de patience which means nothing. In french, you'll find posséder de la patience or avoir de la patience or être patient or prendre patience or faire preuve de sang froid. I think the last one is the best for your meaning of capable of patience.

These don't exist : n'en en pouvant plus; en en ne pouvant plus. The one is gramatically correct, but never used. en n'en pouvant plus

In general gerund is unused in french. To place negation in your sentences, you'll have to place it on the previous verb. I couldn't find a way to use gerund on faire preuve de sang froid. Example : The surgeon is operating with composure. = Le chirurgien opère en faisant preuve de sang froid. To add negative : The surgeon isn't operating with composure. = Le chirurgien n'opère pas en faisant preuve de sang froid. To add negative with "plus" : The surgeon isn't operating with composure since his accident. = Le chirurgien n'opère plus en faisant preuve de sang froid depuis son accident.

For your information, "plus" is used for something what had been positive.

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    "en n'en pouvant plus" sounds correct, isn't it ? Same for "Le chirurgien opère en ne faisant pas preuve de sang froid" – Random Jan 11 '16 at 9:35
  • @Random I can't find a sentence it would work. Give the one you have in mind please. – Julien Dryepondt Jan 11 '16 at 9:39
  • Let's say in a hot-dog contest: "Il a avalé le dernier hot-dog en n'en pouvant plus tellement son estomac était plein" maybe ? Even if you could say it another way. – Random Jan 11 '16 at 10:20
  • @Julien Dryepondt 1. I am sorry that my examples were bad. I should have scoured the sources till I found well formed examples. 2. It is hard for me to believe that French speakers have no occasion to negate participial or en + participle phrases. "He sped on, not thinking of the child lagging behind." Wouldn't the French equivalent of this involve a negated participial or en + participle? – Catomic Jan 11 '16 at 10:34
  • @Random I think it can work. But that sounds really weird. In french, the gerund/participe présent isn't really used. The sentence would be "Il a avalé le dernier hot-dog et n'en pouvait plus tellement son estomac était plein" – Julien Dryepondt Jan 11 '16 at 10:35

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