I have read in TLFi, Word Reference and in Wiktionary that "commerce" is pronounced /kɔ.mɛʁs/. However, I hear an /o/ instead of an /ɔ/ in the corresponding audios in both WR and Wiktionary web pages. Is it just me or is this /ɔ/ not pronounced accurately as in "porte"? Maybe the difference is related to stress?
7
-
1Maybe a regional pronunciation ? If I imagine "commerce" with a closed [o], that sounds to my ears like a feature from the South of France.– GregCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 9:40
-
@Greg I expected TLFi, Word Reference and Wiktionary to point to the standard (Parisian AFAIK) French pronunciation. Don't you?– Alan EvangelistaCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 10:12
-
Does this answer your question? Do I have to learn /o/ or /ɔ/ separately?– jlliagreCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 13:00
-
@jiliagre I'm not asking if I have to learn the 2 phonems, I want to know what native French speakers use in this specific case. If there are regional differences, I want to know them.– Alan EvangelistaCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 13:17
-
Native French speakers might use both pronunciations. There are regional and individual variations. I suspect that people who say \ʁoz\ for rose are more likely to say \kɔ.mɛʁs\ while people who say \ʁɔzə\ are more likely to say \ko.mɛʁsə\.– jlliagreCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 13:36
|
Show 2 more comments
3 Answers
In French, the pronunciation between /o/ and /ɔ/ is quite close. In the case of "commerce", it is effectively a /o/; the o is pronounced like "eau" (water) and not as "porte".
However, depending on the region, the accents differ and many pronunciations are "distorted" or at least less accentuated.
I found another recording recorded by someone of French origin (and not English like on Wiktionary), maybe that will help you to distinguish:
-
It's odd that, even in the link you mentioned in which I clearly hear /ko.mɛʁs/ in the audio , the IPA transcription says /kɔ.mɛʁs/. I thought that someone would have noted and fixed that inconsistency at some point. Commented Oct 7, 2020 at 10:10
-
Indeed, according to my answer, I will use /ko.mɛʁs/ instead. Maybe I am not pronouncing it correctly myself ... As I said, the distinction between open and closed o is quite close, even lost depending on the region and the words. See: fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Prononciation/… if your read French.– ArmandCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 10:28
-
Thanks for the useful link! As a self taught languages learner, I find very frustrating when dictionaries use outdated (aka "traditional") IPA transcriptions. Commented Oct 7, 2020 at 10:37
As a French language learner, you shouldn't focus on differences no native French really cares of.
What is important is mispronunciations that would either lead to a different word than the one expected (rare) or prevent the listener to easily or at all understand what you want to say.
Using /o/ or /ɔ/ in commerce isn't either of these cases so just use whatever vowel you like. Nobody will notice.
The standard pronunciation is [kɔ mεʀs] as found in the TLFi. Nevertheless, there are variations and [o] is also found ; this is also true for a large number of other nouns, for instance "restaurant". For example, my personal pronunciation for these two is /o/ (as internalised, not a result of practicing). Either one is acceptable. However, in "restaure" there is just one possibility and that is /ɔ/. In "restorez", again the two are possible. Apparently, there exists a pnonétic principle for deducing where the change is possible and even likely, but I am not aware of it. It could be a question having to do with the phonetic vowel that follows, whether it is a nasal or not.
-
Personally, I always heard that the "o" was always pronounced /ɔ/ if the vowel of the next syllabe was a silent "e". Remark that it is not the only case where the "o" os pronounced /ɔ/, but I don't know an example of such a "o" where it is pronounced /o/ Commented Oct 7, 2020 at 10:05
-
@AbelMilor An example is "rose"; standard: [ʀo:z], ie north, central; extreme southern part: /rɔz/. Here is an interesting reference in the way of showing a little of the unsuspected variety there is in the pronunciation of French: buzzfeed.com/fr/julesdarmanin/…– LPHCommented Oct 7, 2020 at 17:24